Posted by: Erbse | July 9, 2010

1.3.6 a step backwards rather than forward?

The last day more and more information about 1.3.6 have been announced by the developers in the corresponding forum section.

Not only have game changes as such been announced, but also a few class information were given, as well as a preview of the redesigned Sovereign sets. Hey that sounds good! Practically, yes. Theoretically and more over balance wise, not so much. Why is that? Well, I shall enlighten you shortly.

While there’s obviously good changes, such as the RvR changes or the option to look the way you want I find most other things that been announced mere fan service giving in to the complaining community, negating the effort Mythic tried to make getting this game into balance again.

On one hand there’s the Rune Priest and Zealot mechanic revamp or introduction for that matter with some Magus love, while on the other hand there’s the changes in the Tank department. I can’t comment much on the Zealot and Rune Priest thing, and the Magus love can hardly be considered such, as it frankly won’t change a thing for them as it stands, but you bet that the tank changes are real game changer.

Basically what we’re seeing is the Black Guard becoming an Iron Breaker as of 1.3.6 with some gimmicks attached to it that even surpasses an Iron Breaker. Whoever played Destro probably knows how devastating those pesky Dwarves can be, at times to a point the only thing you can do is shake your head at the games’ balance. Fortunately both realms will soon have walking, obliterating fortresses, means more fun for everyone, aye? At least Iron Breakers get their Armor Debuff slightly nerfed (1280 @ full Grudge / Hate / Spec) before it gets mirrored over to the Black Guard. Some healers might be rejoicing in the fact that Black Guards will lose their massive disorient in the process, personally that’s hardly an issue however because chances are that they’re likely to start walking over you in a matter of seconds not even needing a disorient. Granted, slight exaggeration on my part, it will be painful regardless.

The more amusing thing however, putting the changes announced in the topic together and you’ll notice who the loser of the patch is going to be. Exactly, the BO / SM. SMs arguably were already rock bottom and the free shift ability does absolutely nothing to aid them in any shape or form, while BOs make at least rock solid PvE tanks. While Black Guards raise to the top SMs remain questionable useless alongside the BOs – this most certainly is a good way to make sure that two classes can soon be taken out of the game – this, after all, would make their jobs tremendously easier as currently they evidently seem to be a tad clueless.

The Iron Breakers original 1600 Armor Debuff (Cutting Claw equivalent) will move to the White Lions, ensuring that they will soon cause massive havoc, especially with Pounce. Chances are we soon will see a Pounce nerf, hopefully anyway. A 5s CD seems to be appropriate.

Choppas are losing their spammable Armor Debuff (Can’t Stop da Chop) and get Deep Wounds instead. This means that Choppas won’t hit as hard anymore they do right now, but it by no means means that they become less deadly, as an incoming Heal Debuff is huge on those classes. Having a Slayer I can testify to its importance.

This leaves Sovereign redesign announcements that have been made so far, for Tanks and Healers. The sets look rather great, especially given their Archtypes, until you happen to read the offensive stats, which will make you puke. Those are also the reason I mentioned fan service up above to please the whiners. Lets take a look at the Tanks offensive set.

Str – 232

WS – 134

Wou – 116

Tou – 106

Spi – 294

Cor – 289

Ele – 289

6% melee crit chance

40 melee power

4% parry strikethrough

3 AP/s

2% parry

3 piece – 85 Str

4 piece – 85 WS

5 piece – 5% DPS

6 piece – On Hit: 10% chance to increase melee power by 130 for 10s.

7 piece – On Hit: 10% chance to increase parry/block strikethrough by 10% for 10s.

8 piece – 2m cooldown – Up to 9 allies within a 20 foot radius have their movement speed increased by 60% for 5s.

Well, look at those stats. Now look at them again. Now imagine an Iron Breaker with that gear running towards you, or a soon to be awesome Black Guard. Fun times! Indeed. Chances are they’ll be able to dish out more damage some actual DPS classes do. The 6pc proc pretty much offsets the fact that you’re not double / tripple stacking strength, while all items at the same time provide massively more armor Invader / Anni / Warlord would. Not only will they hit as hard, if not harder they do currently, but they’ll also mitigate more they already do. The 7pc gets even more amusing, to a point I wouldn’t even know what to say about it, but that it shouldn’t be a on a Tanks set, along with the 5pc and 6pc, obviously. 8pc can be a nice gimmick, AoE Odjira that doesn’t break can be used tactically and turn battles around – definitely something I find suiting for a Tank set. Also note that Tanks lose less than DPS classes by wearing the full set, as most Tanks Glyph sets to not yield any kind of Meele Power or Meele crit bonuses.

Lets move to the offensive healing set for Archmages, Shamans, Zealots and Rune Priests

Int – 232

Tou – 134

Wou – 116

Ini – 106

Spi – 294

Cor – 289

Ele – 289

6% magic crit chance

40 magic power

4 AP/s

4% disrupt strikethrough

2% reduced armor penetration

3 piece – 85 Int

4 piece – 85 Wou

5 piece – 5% Magic Crit

6 piece – On Hit: 10% chance to increase magic power by 130 for 10s.

7 piece – On Hit: 10% chance to increase target’s chance to be critically hit by 10% for 10s.

8 piece – 2m cooldown – Increases your critical damage amount by 50% for 10s.

A Rune Priests’ and Zealots’ DPS potential is questionable as it stands, but whoever fought a DPS Archmage and/or Shaman will probably get nightmares after having read through this. 11% crit off the set + 12% from Renown + Liniment = 28% crit without the actual +10% chance to crit having gone off on a target. All this while excluding the enemies original chance to be crit. Archmages tend to melt my toons quite hard across all tiers, and that’s with Conq / Invader gear. Not only will they melt you harder and quicker now, no, they too will get an immense armor bonus from wearing Sovereign rather than lowbie armor sets. The 8pc bonus pretty much is the cherry on top in terms of ridiculousness. I really hope god is with Destro after 1.3.6 as they’ll experience a lot of frustrating ‘healer’ encounters.

Lastly there’s the redesign for meele ‘healers’.

Str – 232

WS – 134

Wou – 116

Tou – 106

Spi – 294

Cor – 289

Ele – 289

6% melee crit chance

40 melee power

20% auto attack speed

3 AP/s

2% parry strikethrough

3 piece – 85 Str

4 piece – 85 WS

5 piece – 5% Melee Crit

6 piece – On Hit: 10% chance to increase melee power by 130 for 10s.

7 piece – On Hit: 10% chance to recover 20 AP.

8 piece – 2m cooldown – Increases your critical damage amount by 50% for 10s.

Hm, 11% crit + 15% crit + Liniment + 12% renown = 43% crit for a Warrior Priest, bottom line. Ouchies! Indeed. 6pc as all the other 6pc bonuses shouldn’t exist on a healer Archtype while the 7pc is nice, admittedly. 8pc is again nothing that should be existing. What is Mythics deal here? More damage = more heals! Yes, you are correct. However, rather than giving them competing for DPS classes how about raising the % healed? Oh sorry, can’t do this. DoKs would certainly be upset if they could not longer take 4 people at once with a realistic chance at beating them.

The disparity between DPS Archtypes and Healing / Tank Archtypes have already been very slim and in some cases Healers even surpass supposedly DPS classes. Due to this I can’t even come up with a DPS Sovereign set that wouldn’t be retardedly broken (probably a insta kill proc?) to maintain a valid existence of the DPS Archtype. DPS Archtype can do nothing but DPS, some less efficient than Healing Archtypes even, that, if desired, can go respec and become Healing gods, or Tanks that become fortresses with 5-6k Armor – I really do not have much else to say about all of this, but that fan service isn’t going to improve the game but only drive it into the sand faster. At least everyone will be pleased right before it happens, right? Right.

So far there haven’t been any announcements in regards to the Shadow Warrior, Marauder or generally RDPS classes. So there’s a tiny little spark of hope they will throw us a bone, though I tend to believe that it’s not going to happen. Everything mentioned above isn’t everything that will be in the patch notes, nor are they set in stone (as good as though, knowing Mythic), but I currently see more of a mess than a clear line that’s trying to help the game back on track.

While many player have the tendency to scream disparity and differences in classes are great they seem to ignore that Mythic makes more and more classes outright obsolete (mainly DPS Archtype classes) as non DPS Archtype classes can fulfill that role just equally well if not better. Having the Shadow Warrior, Magus and Engineer disappear would hardly impact the game in its current state, now would it?

Oh well, there’s enough games coming out that might be worth my time, at least more than Warhammer will be 😛

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Responses

  1. If you are trying to say that the TTK is low and will be even lower with the coming patch, than yes I agree with you. Either sets/non dps damage needs to be toned down, or survivability stats increased in value.

    If you are saying that hybrid careers shouldn’t get hybrid sets then no, I can’t agree. Let’s just have tanky tanks, backline pure healers and dps? Remove all damaging spells from healers and tanks as they don’t need them anyway? No, thanks.

    • What I mean is that non DPS Archtypes will be way too potent at DPS’ing, making the actual DPS Archtype obsolete. DoKs, WPs, DPS AMs, Iron Breakers (soon Black Guards, too) already can compete with DPS classes, partially even beat them in their own field.

      How do you justify a Healing Archtype (Hybrid or not) to out DPS an actual DPS class? Right, you cannot, not as long as you have a shred of sanity anyway 😉

      Archmages are arguably the best RDPS class already, way ahead of the Engineer and Shadow Warrior anyway. The disparity will only get bigger as of 1.3.6. My Guild’s Iron Breakers (our best one anyway), used to stay on par with the damage my Shadow Warrior dealt, by average 80 – 160k per Scenario while sharing an equal amount killing blows as well. Needless to say he could take tripple the amount of damage I could. Also note how the DoK / WP Sovereign set gives them 20% (!!) AA haste additionally to their tactic. Auto Attack is irrelevant on those classes, but mere fan service, so they can return to their old facerollability. Auto Attack haste doesn’t heal, but solely deals damage, it’s not something the class is supposed to do in my books – definitely not when being able to compete with other DPS Archtypes.

      The real problem becomes apparent when looking at the other options the classes have. Hey I’m a DoK / WP, or what shall I do? “Well, I grab my DPS set and be on par with a DPS class!” or “Let me switch back to healing and become the best healer this game has to offer!”. Same applies to the Archmage pretty much – tanks are already pretty insane for most part, or will be shortly anyway.

      What can DPS classes do? Tank? No. Heal? No. DPS? Not better everyone else can.

      A bigger problem that arises is that 7/8pc Sovereign favors healers / tanks, as 3pc Glyphs do not offer Magic / Meele Power to them, so it’s win – win for them, while DPS classes have to either break their 108 meele /range / magic power Glyph set or their LotD Cloak + Jewelery set which will widen the gap further.

      Lastly, you can’t say any of these sets are Hybrid sets in any way. They’re brute force to get the job of choice done in the extreme. Hybrid inclines buffing two areas simultaneously with the same items / gear.

      • Ah, but you see, here you are talking about something else. You are talking about comparing the damage of underpowered dps careers to the damage of other careers. Tanks/Healers don’t come near the damage of a Slayer/Choppa/WH/WE/Sorc/BW when equally played and geared. So Engi/SW/Magus/WL/Mara are considered underpowered dps careers and need to be buffed. This has nothing to do with itemisation. The disparity will be made bigger with Sov change, but it is not the underlying problem. If that is fixed, new Sov becomes more appealing.

        Also; don’t look at things from a 1v1 perspective. A DPS AM is a better choice than a BW for solo or dueling, but it’s no contest in a group environment.

        And if I speak for myself, I can’t see any imbalance when looking at the damage of a balanced tank vs a balanced dps. Tank’s dps is lower which is compensated with more utility and survivability. (I have 2 tanks and 2 dps)

        Plus you are looking at only half the changes that aren’t even set in stone yet. Don’t jump to conclusions. Now if you say that dps Sov will prolly be too good and they’ll instagib everyone, I agree. But let’s wait and see what happens. We can rant when they have us test the changes.

        PS: AA haste is not irrelevant for a DoK/WP, we have a dps tree for a reason. 🙂

      • From your post I take it that you think that DPS classes (Slayer/Choppa/WH/WE/Sorc/BW) are fine as they are, the ‘normal’ state of should be, while Engi/SW/Magus/WL/Mara are underpowered if compared.

        Now I ask you however, do you truly believe that if the Engi / SW / Magus was brought to BW / Sorc level and the WL / Mara to Choppa / Slayer level the game was still playable in any form or shape?

        No matter from what angle I look onto Warhammer, all I ever see is one huge mess caused by cluelessness and ignorance when it comes to balance.

  2. I don’t know how would the game be played, but I do believe it’s easier to bring underpowered careers up to other careers level and simply up suriviability, rather than bring all damage down.

  3. Dear Erbse,

    I have seen a lot of your posts in warhammer and have expressed my deep agreement to you on several occasions.

    Sometimes i feel like mythic does not have a mother fucking clue about what they are doing with DPS healers and tanks.

    I’m sick of being a marauder just so i have every single tank own me in terms of damage at their fucking whim when they specc/gear offensive.

    And as usual, even SW-s got some love in the new patch notes [1.3.6 further changes] but marauder as fucking usual left out.

    I am getting so tired of all this stupid bull i will either reroll or end my subscription soon.

    Right now WL-s seem promising because with an 1.4k-1.6k [depends on specc depth] armor debuff they will destroy the hell out of people.

    Anyhow

    the tank/healer sov dps sets are plain-out re-tarded.
    You did not know the meaning of survivable DPS archmages until patch 1.3.6

    i can’t wait for the first guy to upload a movie onto a site about his rr80 archmage taking on fourteen folks [without slotting divine fury], easily melting one at a time in 4seconds each, and healing himself out of all their offensive abilities.

    Heed my words, hybrid carreeers will get so OP in 1.3.6 it will be fucking ridiculous.

    The magus/SW changes are very good, the CQ redesign is good, altho they fked up engi a bit, and the new sovereign sets are good but so far from balanced it is freakfucking sad.

    Not to mention, if i’m correct the 6pc/7pc/8pc on the tank sets are more diserable for a MDPS than the 6pc/7pc/8pc ones on THE GOD DAMN MDPS SETS THEMSELVES.

    1.3.6 will be a colossal fail, and i really hate to usually forecast bad crap about a game i like [like warhammer] but i feel 1.3.6 is just going to be a colossal fail in terms of tank/healer balance.

    Where is balance in this game?

  4. In all honesty, I don’t see what all the fuss is about dps healers.
    Their base damaging stats are lower than dps classes, their abilities do less base damage and weapons have lower dps ratings (in general). And from a tactical point of view they can be a dpsers best chance to do some damage while the other side takes them down due to the “healers down first”.

    When equally geared and well played, I can safely say I’ve never seen a dps healer surpass a good dps. They can surpass a lot of the crappy ones though and thank God for that. Someone better be killing something.


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